I am always reluctant to use Netadvantage for ASP.NET controls when there already exist the same controls in VS2005 (i.e.: gridview, panel, tab). Although Infragistics controls are easier to use and has plenty of formatting options, the load that these controls add (JavaScript code in the resource file and styling images) push me away. I am not sure exactly how much it would increase the loading time or it would be noticeable for the user. I hope I am wrong
@JohnBobby
JohnBobby said: "Aikido is a brand new asp.net framework, built on top of Microsoft's ASP.NET AJAX extensions. All new controls built by Infragistics are built on top of this framework." seems like it will take a very long time for all controls to be rewritten under this new framework if you are only releasing 3 or so each time!
"Aikido is a brand new asp.net framework, built on top of Microsoft's ASP.NET AJAX extensions. All new controls built by Infragistics are built on top of this framework."
seems like it will take a very long time for all controls to be rewritten under this new framework if you are only releasing 3 or so each time!
It's always hard to explain the benefits of a new version without making the old version sound bad, but the truth is that even without the rewrite, the Infragistics controls, including the WebGrid are the best on the market (I know I'm a bit biased - but I really do believe this is true). The rewrite is all about making the controls even better - and not all controls require such an extensive rewrite. The Grid is probably the largest project, due to some of the complex architectrual changes that are being made.
JohnBobby said: 1) I have no way to know if what you say here is true and 2) I don't know specifically which "other vendor" you are referring to (please be specific if you can back up the claim as it would be helpful to me and others)
1) I have no way to know if what you say here is true and 2) I don't know specifically which "other vendor" you are referring to (please be specific if you can back up the claim as it would be helpful to me and others)
You're right - you have no way to know if what I say is true (which is almost my point) - and I probably shouldn't have said anything. My intent isn't to bash another product, but to make you aware that what may sound like a big deal on paper, may not be such a big deal at all. Here's a more concrete example. Go look for the "fastest grid on the market" and I'm sure you'll find multiple vendors making the same claim. Do you believe them just because they say it? No, you test it yourself. That was what I was trying to get at. I spend my days doing competitive analysis, so it's one of my own pet peeves to see the 'claims' that are being made, which are virtually unfounded. At the end of the day, just be sure to do your homework, and you'll be fine.
I would like to suggest that if you (or anyone else) would like to follow up on this discussion we schedule a phone call, and chat about this in real-time. I'm starting to struggle just trying to find which questions were asked, which ones I answered, etc. Plus, I don't make as many typo's when I'm talking on the phone :)
And you're right, I meant 2008 Volume 3, not 2008 Volume 1. Like you said - 2008 volume 2 just shipped, so I would say there's a really good chance the feature list for 2008 volume 1 is already set in stone. :)
-Tony
@tony
thanks for your balanced reply. my thoughts are below.
"Infragistics has been doing AJAX development since 2004"
and kudos to you but you have acknowledged that your controls need to be rewritten (hence, Aikido) and that is what I hear often here in the forums, that your controls do the job but are heavy weight.
"While other vendors may be pushing their "new" AJAX frameworks, be cautious of what ammounts to nothing more than a marketing campaign"
"in the 2008.2 release, we added Safari support"
no disrespect but with a 2% market share we have much greater concerns than Safari support!
"I can't guarantee that drag and drop support is coming in 2008 volume 1"
I don't understand this comment as 2008 volume 1 was released some time ago and in fact 2008 volume 2 was just released! maybe you meant 2008? assuming so, to me this indicates you've abandoned this component at least in terms of enhancing its functionality. I appreciate you talking to the PM; tell him/her that if they are serious about the scheduler component they should look at the competition and see that they are now behind the state of the art.
"I would hope that you can agree that there was quite a bit of value in each of the releases"
actually I do not agree. and I am williing to admit this could be my own problem. but I have been and remain disappointed with each release of late. I eagerly look forward to a new release and then when I read the news it seems maybe there are one or two new features, and then something minor like a new chart is listed as a major new feature and enhancements (bug fixes?) to existing components listed as new features. from a marketing perspective, some of your recent releases IMHO should not even have a front-page splash/announcement rather just a page of release notes. it feels like over-promising and under-delivering to me. but again, maybe I am totally off-base here and I'm just feeling this way because my specific needs have not been met.
"We generally don't talk about roadmaps"
I understand the issues you discuss here but it would still be useful to know whether a component is slated for improvement within the next few releases. seems like you could just decide internally "yes" or "no" on something like that looking down the road for a year. not to sound like a broken record but it seems to me that the scheduler component was created and released to great fanfare and then shelved.
I really do appreciate your comments and I hope I don't sound too negative. our subscription goes through the end of the year so I'll be curious to see what the last release of 2008 brings.
JohnBobby said: As far as price is concerned it really is not about the price. I have lost more $ in wasted time trying to get the scheduler to work the way I want it to than I paid for the components! These tools are supposed to save me money!
As far as price is concerned it really is not about the price. I have lost more $ in wasted time trying to get the scheduler to work the way I want it to than I paid for the components! These tools are supposed to save me money!
My experience with WebGrid, Input Formatters, and the Menu, is that the learning curve is steep, but after that it's worth it. It's taken me about two years to learn my way around my particular subset of the tool set.
They are trying to improve this by providing better documentation, but these forums are (IMO) several times as valuable as all of the KB, Docs, and Samples put together. (Thanks in large part to the participation of IG staff.)
JohnBobby,
I really appreciate you taking the time to spell that out for me. I'm not going to try and sway your opinion one way or another, but I do feel compelled to comment on a couple of the items.
Aikido is a brand new asp.net framework, built on top of Microsoft's ASP.NET AJAX extensions. All new controls built by Infragistics are built on top of this framework. Aikido was the code name used before we released the new controls built ontop of this framework.. it was an easy way to talk about it "vNext" The WebSlider, along with any new web controls are being built on top of this new framework. The new Aikido version of a Grid is expected in the 8.3 release, and there's a TreeView replacement on its way as well. These controls are available as CTPs currently.
Infragistics has been doing AJAX development since 2004. We called it "LoadOnDemand XML" back then. The Infragistics controls use "embedded ajax", meaning you don't have to do anything other than set a property on the control to make it work. There's no need to wrap a grid in an UpdatePanel or use any type of AJAX Manager, because the grid is smart enough to communicate with the server on its own. This makes a big difference in network bandwidth. The updatepanel (or any external AJAX panel) is easy to use, but not easy on your bandwidth. From my viewpoint, we've pushed AJAX into just about every place it made sense. So if you have areas where you feel we can be doing more, I'd love to hear them. While other vendors may be pushing their "new" AJAX frameworks, be cautious of what ammounts to nothing more than a marketing campaign. We've gone back to the drawing board and re-architected webcontrols from the ground up. We've taken 7+ years of ASP.NET control development experience and lessons and applied them to create what I strongly believe is the best component framework out there.
As for development on WebSchedule,we have done a good deal of work on these components, but a large portion of the work done has been more broad based framework enhancements. We added AJAX support directly to the controls, and recurring appointments last year, and in the 2008.2 release, we added Safari support. There have been other optomizations, but most importantly to you, we have not added any additional drag and drop support. I can't guarantee that drag and drop support is coming in 2008 volume 1, but I will certainly push this feature request with the product manager. One thing that may make this more likely is that the development team has just finised work on an overall drag and drop framework. I don't think it will take very long to extend this out to webschedule. Again, I'll speak with the PM about this.
All in all, I would hope that you can agree that there was quite a bit of value in each of the releases, but no matter how many additoinal features were added, it wasn't going to help you fill in the missing scheduling feature that you needed. I can certainly undrstand that. Unfortunately for all of us, every release we're faced with the same difficult task of choosing which features will go in, and which will get cut from the list. And inevitably, with each release there's going to be a disapointed customer whose feature didn't make it in. Heck, it took until Visual Studio 2008 for all of us to finally get some sort of JavaScript intellisense beyond "window" :)
We generally don't talk about roadmaps, and it's not because we want to keep you guessing. The truth is that in order to produce 3 volume releases a year, it takes a very agile process. A process where a total feature set may not be finalized until a month before the product ships. In my opinion, there's nothing worse than making a promise and not delivering on it. We have been sharing more of a vision of our roadmap lately, to help customers understand where we're going (Aikido framework, and CTPs), and hopefully that has been helpful.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me - I really do appreciate it. I'll be in touch after I speak to the Product Manager with regards to your feature request. Please feel free to contact me directly if you wish. There sould be an email link in my profile. And that hat invitation goes out to everyone else reading as well. I hesitate to put my email address in here because of spam, but I'll give you a hint it's my first name, last initial @infragistics.com
@WombatEd
I would tend to agree that the subscription model is flawed. I know they (not just Infra but the industry) are trying to keep our cash flowing in but for me I think it causes more problems than it cures. 1) as I noted above, my expectations from a new release are never met and 2) it actually causes me more work if I choose to upgrade my apps in the field 3 times a year! But, just for the record, if I added up the last 3 updates and considered them a yearly update I'd still be disappointed!