Hello,

  We are using NetAdvantage for .NET+WPF 2007 Vol 3, the question that keeps coming up and I am looking for documentation on, is: Does NetAdvantage need to load, JavaScript or ActiveX controls to the client?

Can you point me in the right direction?

@JohnBobby - I'm interested in hearing what your disappointments were with the last 3 updates.  I personally use the WebDialogWindow and WebImageViewer in just about every app I build these days.  I also don't know how I used to live without application styling.  If I ever have to go back and set indidivdual CssClassName properties/attributes on various controls and objects again, I think I'll cry.  AppStylist alone I think was worth a 1 year subscription.  There's also a brand new reporting/document engine capable of producing PDF or XPS documents.  And underneath all of that was a re-tooling ontop of Microsoft ASP.NET AJAX Extensions.  I think it's safe to say you wont find anyone able to reproduce that workload for what ammounts to less than 1 week's pay.  I seriously am intersted in better understanding why the releases left you disappointed, so if you're in a sharing mood, I've got my 'ears on'. 

-Tony

well, one of the features you seem to be most excited about (app styling) was not in the last 3 updates but about 5 updates ago. Personally I feel things like dialog window and image viewer are very minor additions since they are readily available without having them in my netadvantage toolkit.

Overall the last 4 releases have left me unimpressed.

ASP.NET 2008 Vol. 2
-WebSlider (don't care about it)
-WebHierarchicalDataSource (don't even understand it yet)
-add one new chart type to existing charts (I generally feel a new chart type is way too minor to be touted as a new feature)

ASP.NET 2008 Vol. 1
-Aikido Framework with three new controls (only three? no grid? and no Aikido in latest release? is this really coming?)

ASP.NET 2007 Vol. 3
-export features (kinda cool but not strong enough to be the basis for a new release)
-enhancements to existing controls (ho hum)

ASP.NET 2007 Vol. 2
-SEO (I don't believe anything you have added to the controls will replace or significantly reduce my custom SEO efforts)
-official release of gauges that were released previously (kind of a letdown that they were used as a major feature of two releases! plus once I tried to use them I realized they produce static images without any sort of animation-gauges should move!- and are difficult to set up and generally not worth the trouble IMHO)
-enhancements to existing controls (again, ho hum)

maybe my expectations are too high. that is possible. the primary reason we purchased the netadvantage components when we did was because at the time you appeared to have the best scheduler component out there. however once we started using it we quickly realized that some of the features available in the Winform version were not in the web version. and key things became deal-breakers for us. for example, you can drag an appointment from one time to another time within a day but you cannot drag to a different day. both we and our customers are puzzled by this limitation.

when I have asked about the web scheduler I was told you are going to continue to improve it but I have no idea if and when that will ever happen. it has not happened during my 1.5 years of subscriptions! and as far as I can tell you do not publish a roadmap for the product lines so we never know whether something is going to be fixed or not. my impression is you created it and then abandoned it to work on other components. and now one of your main competitors has a really superior scheduler that we are evaluating.

your competitor also appears to be way ahead when it comes to their native Ajax support. your Aikido Framework seems to have stalled while they have already released a completely new framework.

I apologize if I sound too negative. I admit to being a bit frustrated. It is not my intent to disparage your components as you clearly have some big fans (Chris!) but at this point we are planning to switch to another component vendor when our subscription expires. I need a solid scheduler component and don't know if you are ever going to update yours. fortunately (for me at least) I can get one right now that will do what I need.

Can stored procedures (pl/sql) be used  for hierarchical data sources? Could you point me to any examples? 

thanks in advance!

GS

I have been using Infragistics products for the past 10 years...Sheridan Data Widgets.  None of their customers pushes these guys harded than I do!  Very simply, nearly all of my development is tied to using the Infragistics toolset.  I can literally say I have zero experience with the MS Grid that ships with VS2008.

One of the things I learned a long time ago about database development for windows and web is that the presentation layer is just that: THE PRESENTATION LAYER.  Any effort to use it to massage and manipulate the data has performance consequences.

THE DB SERVER IS YOUR FRIEND

Get the data you need from your server EXACTLY the way you want the data presented.  Yes it takes more time to write the stored procs, but you should also see a performance gain.

Web Hierachical Data Source

I have been waiting for this control for a while.  It eliminates the need to manually create your heirachical grid.  Instead you create multiple sqldatasources and the WHDS manages the relationships for the WebGrid.  It has great potential! :) . 

I want to see it at the centerpiece of ALL the Infragistics hierachical controls Trees, Menus, Calendars etc.  It works fabulously with the Trees, Menus.  Me thinks it should eventually replace the "custom datasource" used for the calendar.  That way the calendar "data" can be easier to customize.

WebDialogWindow

I use this on EVERY MASTERPAGE!  Being able to provide a modal dialog with a few lines of code is something every developer needs.  Now I need it to provide standard Alert dialogs that can replace the MS validation alert boxes.

"Every conquest brings a newer quest!"  ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

@JohnBobby

JohnBobby said:

"Aikido is a brand new asp.net framework, built on top of Microsoft's ASP.NET AJAX extensions.  All new controls built by Infragistics are built on top of this framework."

seems like it will take a very long time for all controls to be rewritten under this new framework if you are only releasing 3 or so each time!

It's always hard to explain the benefits of a new version without making the old version sound bad, but the truth is that even without the rewrite, the Infragistics controls, including the WebGrid are the best on the market (I know I'm a bit biased - but I really do believe this is true).  The rewrite is all about making the controls even better - and not all controls require such an extensive rewrite.  The Grid is probably the largest project, due to some of the complex architectrual changes that are being made. 

JohnBobby said:

1) I have no way to know if what you say here is true and 2) I don't know specifically which "other vendor" you are referring to (please be specific if you can back up the claim as it would be helpful to me and others)

You're right - you have no way to know if what I say is true (which is almost my point) - and I probably shouldn't have said anything.  My intent isn't to bash another product, but to make you aware that what may sound like a big deal on paper, may not be such a big deal at all.  Here's a more concrete example.  Go look for the "fastest grid on the market" and I'm sure you'll find multiple vendors making the same claim.  Do you believe them just because they say it?  No, you test it yourself.  That was what I was trying to get at.  I spend my days doing competitive analysis, so it's one of my own pet peeves to see the 'claims' that are being made, which are virtually unfounded.  At the end of the day, just be sure to do your homework, and you'll be fine. 

I would like to suggest that if you (or anyone else) would like to follow up on this discussion we schedule a phone call, and chat about this in real-time.  I'm starting to struggle just trying to find which questions were asked, which ones I answered, etc.  Plus, I don't make as many typo's when I'm talking on the phone :) 

And you're right, I meant 2008 Volume 3, not 2008 Volume 1.  Like you said - 2008 volume 2 just shipped, so I would say there's a really good chance the feature list for 2008 volume 1 is already set in stone. :)

-Tony

@tony

 thanks for your balanced reply. my thoughts are below.

"Aikido is a brand new asp.net framework, built on top of Microsoft's ASP.NET AJAX extensions.  All new controls built by Infragistics are built on top of this framework."

seems like it will take a very long time for all controls to be rewritten under this new framework if you are only releasing 3 or so each time!

"Infragistics has been doing AJAX development since 2004"

and kudos to you but you have acknowledged that your controls need to be rewritten (hence, Aikido) and that is what I hear often here in the forums, that your controls do the job but are heavy weight.

"While other vendors may be pushing their "new" AJAX frameworks, be cautious of what ammounts to nothing more than a marketing campaign"

1) I have no way to know if what you say here is true and 2) I don't know specifically which "other vendor" you are referring to (please be specific if you can back up the claim as it would be helpful to me and others)

"in the 2008.2 release, we added Safari support"

no disrespect but with a 2% market share we have much greater concerns than Safari support!

"I can't guarantee that drag and drop support is coming in 2008 volume 1"

I don't understand this comment as 2008 volume 1 was released some time ago and in fact 2008 volume 2 was just released! maybe you meant 2008? assuming so, to me this indicates you've abandoned this component at least in terms of enhancing its functionality. I appreciate you talking to the PM; tell him/her that if they are serious about the scheduler component they should look at the competition and see that they are now behind the state of the art.

"I would hope that you can agree that there was quite a bit of value in each of the releases"

actually I do not agree. and I am williing to admit this could be my own problem. but I have been and remain disappointed with each release of late. I eagerly look forward to a new release and then when I read the news it seems maybe there are one or two new features, and then something minor like a new chart is listed as a major new feature and enhancements (bug fixes?) to existing components listed as new features. from a marketing perspective, some of your recent releases IMHO should not even have a front-page splash/announcement rather just a page of release notes. it feels like over-promising and under-delivering to me. but again, maybe I am totally off-base here and I'm just feeling this way because my specific needs have not been met.

"We generally don't talk about roadmaps"

I understand the issues you discuss here but it would still be useful to know whether a component is slated for improvement within the next few releases. seems like you could just decide internally "yes" or "no" on something like that looking down the road for a year. not to sound like a broken record but it seems to me that the scheduler component was created and released to great fanfare and then shelved.

I really do appreciate your comments and I hope I don't sound too negative. our subscription goes through the end of the year so I'll be curious to see what the last release of 2008 brings.

JohnBobby said:

As far as price is concerned it really is not about the price. I have lost more $ in wasted time trying to get the scheduler to work the way I want it to than I paid for the components! These tools are supposed to save me money!

My experience with WebGrid, Input Formatters, and the Menu, is that the learning curve is steep, but after that it's worth it.  It's taken me about two years to learn my way around my particular subset of the tool set.

They are trying to improve this by providing better documentation, but these forums are (IMO) several times as valuable as all of the KB, Docs, and Samples put together.  (Thanks in large part to the participation of IG staff.)