I am having a difficult time fixing a bug in my application. When I select an infragistics UltraDateTimeEditor an exception is thrown:
ArgumentNullException was unhandled -
EnterEditMode requires a embeddableElement parameterParameter name: embeddableElement
I can't figure out what this exception means so I can't find a way to fix it.
Hello,
It is hard to say what is causing this without any details. Can you tell what is your scenario, what are you doing to get this exception?
There are a lot of different reasons for this. Posting a small sample which reproduces the issue would be even better.
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately it would be fairly difficult to create a sample that could reproduce the issue as the code is rather complicated, I'll first try my best to explain - I'm not confident that my explanation will help though as it's kind of strange.
I have a form that has this control and a datagridview. The datagridview has an editable column.
The bug can ONLY be reproduced with the following steps:
I click the UltraDateTimeEditor and change the date, I then must double click the DataGridView to edit a column.
There is an event in the UltraDateTimeEditor - Validated event.
When the validated event fires it makes a call to the back end to populate data in a dataset (call it DS1).
the DataGridView is bound to this DS1.
There is also a CellContentClick event for the dataGridView; however, the exception is thrown at the Validated event stage... during the backend call.
If this is not helpful I will try to create a code sample to reproduce the error.
Can you post a small sample project about this, I am going to research it for you.
I'm currently trying to put together a small project to reproduce the issue. I'm having trouble reproducing it in a separate project though. There are a lot of moving parts in our application.
I can only see the DataGridView being mentioned here. Can you provide the small sample project?
I am still working on producing a small project. I'm having a difficult time reproducing outside of our application.
Based on the stack trace and the error message, this doesn't make a lot of sense. The exception seems to be indicating that there is no UIElement for the cell. But the stack trace shows pretty clearly that the user is clicking on a dropdown button in that cell - which means it must be displayed on the screen and therefore must have a UIElement.
My first guess would be that your application is using threading and something is getting out of synch.
If that's not the case, then it could be a bug, but without being able to reproduce the exception, there's no much we can do to track it down.
Hi,
I'm pretty sure this is a known bug that was fixed a long time ago. I see that you are using v9.1 of the controls, so you probably just need to update.
You can try getting the latest service release and see if the issue is fixed there. How to get the latest service release - Infragistics Community
If not, then the only option would be to upgrade to the latest version of NetAdvantage.
I am facing similar issue.I am developing the windows application and using DataGridView inside windows form. One of the column of my DataGridview is UltraDataTimeEditorColumn which throwing exception as "EnterEditMode requires a embeddableElement parameter Parameter name: embeddableElement." on tab out.
Below is the stack trace:
See the end of this message for details on invoking just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.
************** Exception Text **************System.ArgumentNullException: EnterEditMode requires a embeddableElement parameterParameter name: embeddableElement at Infragistics.Win.EmbeddableEditorBase.EnterEditMode(EmbeddableUIElementBase embeddableElement) at Infragistics.Win.UltraDataGridView.UltraEditorButtonColumnBase.PrepareForEdit(Boolean selectAll, UltraDataGridViewCell cell) at Infragistics.Win.UltraDataGridView.UltraDataGridViewCell.System.Windows.Forms.IDataGridViewEditingCell.PrepareEditingCellForEdit(Boolean selectAll) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.BeginEditInternal(Boolean selectAll) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.SetCurrentCellAddressCore(Int32 columnIndex, Int32 rowIndex, Boolean setAnchorCellAddress, Boolean validateCurrentCell, Boolean throughMouseClick) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.TabToNextCell() at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.ProcessTabKey(Keys keyData) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.ProcessDataGridViewKey(KeyEventArgs e) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.OnKeyDown(KeyEventArgs e) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ProcessKeyEventArgs(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.ProcessKeyEventArgs(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ProcessKeyMessage(Message& m) at Barcap.Cafe.UI.Windows.Controls.CafeDataGridView.ProcessKeyMessage(Message& m) in D:\Nilesh\Client\MorpheusSource\Application\Cafe Source Code\_main.br\Source\Cafe.Client\UI\Windows\Controls\CafeDataGridView.cs:line 350 at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmKeyChar(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.WndProc(Message& m) at Barcap.Cafe.UI.Windows.Controls.CafeDataGridView.WndProc(Message& m) in D:\Nilesh\Client\MorpheusSource\Application\Cafe Source Code\_main.br\Source\Cafe.Client\UI\Windows\Controls\CafeDataGridView.cs:line 231 at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m) at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)
************** Loaded Assemblies **************mscorlib Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.NET/Framework/v2.0.50727/mscorlib.dll----------------------------------------Morpheus Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.8.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Morpheus.exe----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Client Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Client.DLL----------------------------------------System.Drawing Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5462 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll----------------------------------------System Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------System.Windows.Forms Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5460 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll----------------------------------------System.Configuration Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Configuration/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Configuration.dll----------------------------------------System.Xml Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll----------------------------------------Microsoft.VisualStudio.Debugger.Runtime Assembly Version: 10.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 10.0.30319.1 CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/Microsoft.VisualStudio.Debugger.Runtime/10.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/Microsoft.VisualStudio.Debugger.Runtime.dll----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Common Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Common.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Macro Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Macro.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Morpheus.Client Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.8.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Morpheus.Client.DLL----------------------------------------System.Web Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5456 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_32/System.Web/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Web.dll----------------------------------------System.Data Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_32/System.Data/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Data.dll----------------------------------------System.Data.DataSetExtensions Assembly Version: 3.5.0.0 Win32 Version: 3.5.30729.5420 built by: Win7SP1 CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Data.DataSetExtensions/3.5.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Data.DataSetExtensions.dll----------------------------------------System.Core Assembly Version: 3.5.0.0 Win32 Version: 3.5.30729.5420 built by: Win7SP1 CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Core/3.5.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Core.dll----------------------------------------System.DirectoryServices Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.DirectoryServices/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.DirectoryServices.dll----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Net Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Net.DLL----------------------------------------System.Web.Services Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Web.Services/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Web.Services.dll----------------------------------------rlxgcf5n Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------ni9pxk4k Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------Microsoft.Practices.EnterpriseLibrary.Caching Assembly Version: 4.1.0.0 Win32 Version: 4.1.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Microsoft.Practices.EnterpriseLibrary.Caching.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Caching Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Caching.DLL----------------------------------------Microsoft.Practices.EnterpriseLibrary.Common Assembly Version: 4.1.0.0 Win32 Version: 4.1.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Microsoft.Practices.EnterpriseLibrary.Common.DLL----------------------------------------Microsoft.Practices.ObjectBuilder2 Assembly Version: 2.2.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.2.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Microsoft.Practices.ObjectBuilder2.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinDock.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinDock.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Shared.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Shared.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinTabbedMdi.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinTabbedMdi.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinExplorerBar.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.1000 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.1000 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinExplorerBar.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------System.Design Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5460 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Design/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Design.dll----------------------------------------Barcap.Morpheus.Origination.Client Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.8.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Morpheus.Origination.Client.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Morpheus.Application.Client Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.8.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Morpheus.Application.Client.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Morpheus.Common Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.8.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Morpheus.Common.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Morpheus.Origination.Common Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.8.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Morpheus.Origination.Common.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.Misc.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.Misc.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Accessibility Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/Accessibility/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/Accessibility.dll----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Aspects.Client Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Aspects.Client.DLL----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Aspects Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Aspects.DLL----------------------------------------pyueooxg Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------wzqoomf7 Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------kq-0__-j Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------zbqywpc4 Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------i-woadul Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------hkumgcod Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------j6_cuwqq Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------pybtn_zh Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------Barcap.Cafe.Data Assembly Version: 1.5.6.0 Win32 Version: 1.5.6.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Barcap.Cafe.Data.DLL----------------------------------------Microsoft.Practices.EnterpriseLibrary.Data Assembly Version: 4.1.0.0 Win32 Version: 4.1.0.0 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Microsoft.Practices.EnterpriseLibrary.Data.DLL----------------------------------------System.Data.OracleClient Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_32/System.Data.OracleClient/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Data.OracleClient.dll----------------------------------------System.Management Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Management/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Management.dll----------------------------------------System.Transactions Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_32/System.Transactions/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Transactions.dll----------------------------------------System.EnterpriseServices Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: 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file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------k-i_bqei Assembly Version: 2.8.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.5466 (Win7SP1GDR.050727-5400) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/2.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinTabControl.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.1000 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.1000 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinTabControl.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinEditors.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinEditors.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinGrid.v9.1 Assembly Version: 9.1.20091.2050 Win32 Version: 9.1.20091.2050 CodeBase: file:///D:/Nilesh/Client/MorpheusSource/Application/Source%20Code/main.br/Source/Morpheus/Morpheus/bin/Origination/Debug/Infragistics2.Win.UltraWinGrid.v9.1.DLL----------------------------------------System.Runtime.Serialization.Formatters.Soap Assembly Version: 2.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 2.0.50727.4927 (NetFXspW7.050727-4900) CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Runtime.Serialization.Formatters.Soap/2.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Runtime.Serialization.Formatters.Soap.dll----------------------------------------Microsoft.VisualBasic Assembly Version: 8.0.0.0 Win32 Version: 8.0.50727.5420 (Win7SP1.050727-5400) CodeBase: 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For example:
<configuration> <system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" /></configuration>
When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exceptionwill be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computerrather than be handled by this dialog box.
Hello cstodgell,
Thanks for your feedback.
Please feel free to contact us if you have any other questions with that matter.
I might have to be a route that I will take, it's a good suggestion
In situations like these, I find that it's helpful to start with a copy of the real application and then reduce it, rather than trying to start a new project and work up.